Minutes for the Sudan Working Group Meeting on 19/06/08

These minutes are confidential and are for private use only

Location: London, UK
Attendees:

William and Veronica Morris - NCF
Natko Plevnik - NCF
George Henton - NCF

Al-Harith Idriss - CPF & Chaired meeting along with W Morris

Hans Beth - Minister of the Council for Foreign Affairs, German Embassy
Ibrahim Abdullah - Former Deputy Chairman of JEM, now minister of Foreign
Policy for Darfur Independent Front (DIF)
Eman Hamza - Former Mothers for Peace
ElHadi Bashir-DPF
Idris Azraq - leader of the Darfur Independent Front (DIF)

Suleiman Jamous - Humanitarian Affairs Coordinator for the Sudanese Liberation Army

Aaroun Abdulhameed - JEM , Khalil movement
Terab Ahmed Terab - JEM, Khalil movement
Peter Martin - author of the book Darfur Obscenity

William Morris Before we start, could we talk about the Chinese influence in Sudan, and how are the Chinese perceived, attacks on their oil installations?

Aaroun Abdulhameed China is opposing any resolution in the UN, China will try to water down any hard UN resolution, they will try to soften it.
China is giving the weapons to the government of Sudan. It is not just about oil.

William Morris What's going on with the independence for the Southern Sudan?

Aaroun Abdulhameed Nobody in Sudan would want to separate if the Government would be fair, if the wealth would be shared by everyone. The people support a united Sudan.

William Morris When is the referendum due?

Aaroun Abdulhameed The referendum is due in 2011 and it will take place.

Eman Hamza Abyei has its own referendum in 2009.

Terab Ahmed Terab People have the right to decide where to belong.

William Morris What about the Beja people? They are quiet?

Aaroun Abdulhameed They are quiet right now, they are no longer fighting, but the eastern agreement is very weak, it doesn't represent, it can't resolve the issues of the eastern Sudan.
There is no full agreement of the eastern people. Partial peace endangers the country; we are looking for the full agreement, for the whole country.

William Morris What's happening in Chad, why is the Sudanese government trying to destabilize the government in Chad?

Souleiman Jamous There are 3 reasons for that; The first one is to install the government in Chad which would be loyal to them.
The second reason is to make a bridge of arabized muslims and west African countries, and the third one would be to prevent the deployment of the UN troops.

Aaroun Abdulhameed If there was peace the ICC could prosecute so Chad s seen as a possible escape route.

William Morris Let's talk about the western approach to the crisis in Darfur. What are they doing now, what are they doing wrong?

Eman Hamza The international community engagement, they are a self appointed guardian. Everyone in Sudan has been marginalized except the SPLA and the Sudanese government. The 5-mega powers are the guardians of the Sudanese peace agreement. The AU are supposed to keep the civilians safe, but they can't do anything. Speaking of the CPA, the Western countries knew that Darfur was there in 2003; they knew that it would escalate, but they let it escalate. The western approach is all about the containment of Sudan, containment of China, etc. Out of 82 NGO's in Sudan nobody is addressing the reconstruction or development. There is no clear plan of what to do and few people know what is actually happening.

William Morris So, what is the alternative?

Eman Hamza You didn't implement the eastern agreement, it hasn't been done in the proper way.

Ibrahim Abdullah Sudan is the result of the Western colonialism; it's a western creation and not a result of the free will. Darfur has been annexed to Sudan; it has been in Sudan for only 40 years. We have tried to establish the western way. Sudan is a very diverse country, we have about 700 different ethnic groups in Sudan. Problem in Sudan is with the management of its diversity, and the solution would be a genuine federalism. The right for self-determination is the way to solve the problem for the Darfuri people. There must be a paradigm shift in the approach, if we want to think practically.

Let us agree that we are willing to be united, to have one agenda, whether to negotiate or to fight, let us put a timetable, let us agree on the main issues.
Let us discuss political future of Darfur.
There has been too much words with no action, no resolution has been implemented, the Sudanese government is laughing at the resolutions.

The westerners should consult the movement , they consult the Sudanese government but not the movement. The Chinese are stealing the Sudanese oil, they are working against the Darfuri people interests, and Sudanese government needs the Chinese. The joint mediation has failed.

We need from the International community to stand by the UN charter, the right for self-determination goes hand in hand with democracy. Let the people choose; let them have a choice, an option.

William Morris Is difficult to move away from the AU?

Ibrahim Abdullah The AU was highly bribed. The international community is weakening the Darfuri movement. The Sudanese government has three countries supporting it; China, Russia and Qatar.

Terab Ahmed Terab Regarding the AU and UN joint team, the UN is there to support the CPA, there is a conflicting position between the AU and UN. We don't want the Chinese to be exploiting the oil, they are bringing the weapons, and because of them no UN resolution can be strong. The revenue from oil should be directed to specific fonds not in buying weapons.

Most western voices say how Darfur is not a political issue, but instead they regard it as a humanitarian and a security issue. The CPA is not going to work.

We would prefer a mediator not to be from an African country, it would be best to find a non-African mediator in an African conflict. But also maybe it could be someone like General Lazaro Sumbeiywo, from Kenya, who was mediating in the Southern Sudan, he has proved to be neutral, and impartial.

Hans Beth So, you want someone like General Sumbeiywo, why not, he would be suitable.

Ibrahim Abdullah It remains to be seen whether the Sudanese government would like Sumbeiywo. Salim Ahmed Salim was accused by the former Ugandan president for having a role in the Rwandan massacre. Kofi Annan would also be a good choice for a mediator.

William Morris What about the census, so there is no proper census for Darfur and the Beja?

Idris Azraq Government tried to manipulate the census.

Aaroun Abdulhameed Nobody wanted a political agreement, and human casualties went up after agreement. In Abuja the focus was on a security problem, and to solve the problem in Sudan we need a political solution. China and Russia look for Sudanese oil, and Russia wants to sell some of its old weapons to the Sudanese government, the US interest is a security agenda, and the UK has no genuine interest in solving the problem. The UK has no clear road map; the EU countries have no initiatives. Canada is only interested in humanitarian aspect, and the Arab and Muslim countries support the Sudanese government. The Sudan Government's hard-liners say that AU is in their pocket. The ICC is the initiative of the EU, but they have no genuine will to impose it.

The people are being marginalized, we are against the partial peace, the Darfur problem is part of the Sudanese conflict, and that's what we said in Abuja. International community has to unite and stop the fragmentation of the peace process. We need in Sudan something like Dayton agreement was for ex-Yugoslavia, for all sides to be brought together and to have an agreement for the whole of Sudan, not partial peace agreements. We need to stop the oil money being used for buying weapons.
The international community needs to create a separate account for the oil revenue.

Unknown The EU should be more involved instead of the US. The UK colonized Sudan but now they are outsiders. The AU should have more power to bring the real criminals if the ICC is handed to them. Russia is selling their old weapons to Sudan. The EU needs to be involved more in the Sudan situation.

Souleiman Jamous The International community is repeating the failure of the AU with their hybrid force. In reality its an expanded African force and not a hybrid force, and people believe that the Africans will not stop the problem.

On the ground there are some wells, some health centers, but there is nothing constructive on the ground, no development, yet it is the biggest aid relief given in the world at the moment. The non fly area is not being implemented, because it would supposedly conflict with the humanitarian flights. The Janjaweed were named border intelligence and nomad police.

William Morris Would it be possible to disarm the Janjaweed?

Souleiman Jamous The conflict will continue, people are fighting for their survival. The government wants to change the demographics in Darfur, they wanted to do it since 1982.

Ibrahim Abdullah Chief of the Janjaweed went to talk to the ambassador, he told him they are defending themselves. The Janjaweed are not Hizbollah.

Peter Martin The International community has conflicting ambitions in Sudan, the Janjaweed are not a Khartoum creation, they originally came from the Chad conflict. Also, France has an interest in the region; they are present in Chad as a player.

The International community is the main problem, international mediator represents the hidden agenda. The CPA is one of the root causes of the conflict, it marginalizes people. Speaking to the average Sudanese, they want the same thing, Sudan to stay as one. In the ideal world it would be one Sudan, even southern Sudanese say that in private. Although, there have been more talk of the Darfur secession in the last 18 months than before. Until the last few years, it was always said that Sudan has a small reserve of oil. The US did the survey of the area looking for the oil in the 1870s. The Americans have a very distinctive ambition, the UK is tagging along.

The south Sudan is fairly controllable, and the same is with east and the west. It is a divide and rule tactic. I believe that human resourcefulness in Sudan can solve Sudan's problems.

Ibrahim Abdullah The International community has failed Sudan. There has to be a new paradigm, we need to develop a new body, were all groups and movements can be a part of.

William Morris I heard it mentioned that some would support the sacrifice of democracy for peace

Hans Beth What is the problem with that?

Peter Martin With International community you get the international control, but not the peace.

Hans Beth So Martin is here saying that you need to take the International community out, because they spoil countries, but others are calling for the International community trusteeship.

The west wants to act in consensus with the AU, there is a lot of interest behind the actions of western countries but also a lot of good will, it is a complicated situation. It could be easier for Western government, if JEM would be united, to hear their Darfurian position.

Ibrahim Abdullah The mediator should be an option, someone like Kofi Annan, or Sumbeyiwo.

Eman Hamza Who would be behind the mediators? What kind of apparatus? So much money was spent on southern Sudanese, on training them to negotiate peace, there was a whole apparatus behind the mediator, so many issues are there.

Ibrahim Abdullah First we would need a mediator for the movement, for the movement to come together. Everyone should send a leader with a mandate, are they for unity, each movement can bring proposals of their own.

Idris Azraq The splintering of the movement is expression of diversity in Darfur.

Hans Beth Do you need a mediator?

Idris Azraq Let us meet.

Eman Hamza There are 17 Arab tribes in Darfur, we need to see what's going on with these 17 Arab tribes.

Souleiman Jamous My chairman is an Arab.

Ibrahim Abdullah We want to unite political issues not tribes.

Hans Beth Is there a list of different movements?

Ibrahim Abdullah We have the list.

Aaroun Abdulhameed They were united in Abuja, International community disunited them, and International community is not willing to spend any money to unite the movement.

Peter Martin Can you imagine what the AU would have done with the UN resources for Darfur.

Ibrahim Abdullah First we need to work on how we unite then we can move to a position.

William Morris When we are talking about the unity, we are speaking of the unity of the group or unity of position?

Idris Azraq Both.

William Morris We must work on position parallel to forming unity of groups.

Aaroun Abdulhameed Agreed.

Elhadi Bashir No matter how trained you are, no matter the approach, same problem will be there, as long as the same people are in government. The UK has become one of the major players backing the regime. They are the problem.

Last week there was a major issue with the CDA. There is a secret deal with the SPLA and the regime regarding Abyei to share the oil profit and forget the CDA. The only way now is to topple the regime. I am totally convinced no agreement will work. As long as these people are in power there is no luck. SPLA now realizes that the deal was a mistake, but damages is done. We will see serious things happen in the Sudan soon.

William Morris We have a clear picture of where we are going now and we need to discuss; unity between the groups is the first thing, parallel with a clear position.

END